Jewish Time Episode 10 - Transcript

Intro/Outro: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to Jewish Time, a podcast brought to you by the Atlanta Jewish Times, keeping Jewish Atlanta connected, where our mission is to bring you a timely and interesting conversation with people who connect Jewish Atlanta locally, nationally, and around the world.

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com to learn more and make your tax deductible donation today. Hi, welcome to Jewish time. This is episode 10, season two. This will be our last podcast of 2024, and we'll look forward to a whole new season in 2025. My name is Jeff Silberblatt, and this podcast is going to be a little bit different. Three rabbis joined us, a reform, a conservative.

And an Orthodox. And I know that sounds like the beginning of a joke. I assure you that it's not. Let me introduce our panel. Rabbi Peter Berg is the Senior Rabbi at The Temple. That's a Reformed synagogue in Atlanta. He serves on a number of advisory boards, including the Georgia Holocaust Commission. And he's been awarded Atlanta's highest honor, the Phoenix Award.

In 2023, [00:02:00] Rabbi Ari Kaiman is a rabbi at Congregation Shearith Israel. That's an egalitarian conservative synagogue. He was ordained in 2011 and he's worked at Shirith Israel since 2016. And Rabbi Ilan Feldman is joining us. He's the senior rabbi at Beth Jacob Atlanta. He's also a founder and the rabbinic advisor of Torah Day School.

of Atlanta, and additionally, he serves as the Dean of the Atlanta Koshruth Commission. Rabbis, thank you for your time this evening, and thank you for joining us. Rabbis, thank you for your time this evening, and thank you for joining us. Let's get to our first question. Hanukkah's coming up, and I started to think about the Maccabees, Books 1 and 2.

And the question is, is that Maccabees 1 and 2 are part of the Catholic Bible. But they're not a part of Judaism and that's where we're going to start our conversation, our podcast today, if you will. [00:03:00] So I'm going to start with Rabbi Berg. 

Rabbi Peter Berg: It is an interesting phenomenon that particularly that first Maccabees and second Maccabees record the story of Hanukkah that is closest to the actual events of Hanukkah, as opposed to the story that we are most familiar with.

Anxious to teach our children about the oil lasting for eight days, which is found in the Talmud, which was written several hundred years after the events of Hanukkah actually transpired. It would be like me trying to tell the story of George Washington and the cherry tree as if I had firsthand knowledge of that experience.

So, what I appreciate the most about 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees is the proximity to the events of the Hanukkah story itself in 145 BCE, which I think is a really important indication to us about [00:04:00] what the Hanukkah story is really trying to teach us and what it's really about. And the major difference in the story, of course, is that the events that are told in 1 Maccabees deal with The festival of Sukkot and the fact that we missed the opportunity to celebrate Sukkot when we were stuck dealing with a defiled temple, the obligation to go back and correct that and to celebrate Sukkot.

We don't get that story in the Talmud. The Talmud tells the story about the oil lasting for eight days. Okay, I'm going to review, I'm going to remind our podcast listeners that Rabbi Berg is speaking on behalf of the reformed denomination. So now we're going to go to the conservative thoughts. And we'll bring in I'm not sure that was a denominational answer, but okay.

It's okay. I'm going to, I'm going to bring in, uh, Rabbi Ari Kamen.

I'll add to, uh, I'll concur with Rabbi Berg in that I don't think any of us are speaking on behalf of our denominations. We've had [00:05:00] educations that come from a particular denomination. We all have backgrounds. And I think much of what Rabbi Berg said is, is very, uh, resonant with me in terms of thinking about the, the cherry tree.

And it's an interesting choice because that's also a mythical story, right? All stories that we look back upon to tell our choices and how we construct our identity. And I think the rabbis of the Talmud were Really concerned about constructing the kind of hero identity that is based in military and in power and all of the things that they didn't have.

They saw that the ways in which power changed the Jewish people caused us ultimately to lose our power, to lose our ability. Mipnei chata'enu g'alinu me'eretzenu. And since they didn't have access to that, they put God back at the center [00:06:00] of the story. And, God being the center of the story, the miracle of Chanukah, the light of Chanukah, gives us another avenue to recognize the potential that all of us have to lift up light.

And so, I was saying earlier that I wasn't on the committee of canonization, right, but we are the ones who choose which stories we tell. And I think it's really important to tell lots of different stories. I actually think that we as a people are complex enough and are rich enough and are capable enough to hold the multiple stories of our people, the story of the military history and the story of the miracle, and to recognize that all of them are part of what it means to be Jewish today.

Jeff Silberblatt: Two very good answers. And now I'm going to ask Rabbi Ilan Feldman to join and to answer the same question. Why is Maccabees 1 and 2? Those books are in the Bible, but they're not part of Judaism. [00:07:00] Rabbi? 

Rabbi Feldman: Yeah. Great question. Um, the best answer is that the story of Hanukkah is not about a biblical event that is such as, um, the exodus from Egypt or the wandering through the desert.

The story of Hanukkah is, is really designed not to be fixed on a particular event, but to be fixed on a particular attitude. And the attitude is that in every generation there are going to be opportunities for us to fade into the background. and adopt the prevailing culture, which has many virtues to it and some defects from the point of view of Judaism, or to stand up and say, we stand for something.

We stand for the idea that there's a God in the world and there's an authority in the world and there's morality in the world and we're not going to fade into the background. So the [00:08:00] book itself being canonized We turn it into a specific event as opposed to an idea, which I think is really important for us to embrace, particularly at, at, during the times that we're experiencing right now.

Jeff Silberblatt: All right. We got three very different, but excellent answers. from our panel of rabbis. So I'm going to go on to the second question, and that is about the Torah. And this time we're going to start with Rabbi Kamen. Some denominations believe that the Torah has divine stories included. Others believe that the accounts and the stories that we read in the Or factual.

That they actually happened. So I want to know your point of view on the Torah. And whether everything happened as it's written, or, eh, did they embellish a little bit? 

Rabbi Ari Kaimen: You know, we learn [00:09:00] in school that there are two kinds of genres of literature, fiction and non fiction. But I don't think that's adequate.

I think there's fiction and non fiction in this Torah. And Torah is true. But I don't worry too much about the historicity of the Torah, personally. For me, the evidence of Torah's truth is its ability to continue to inspire us to ways of living in the world that are creative and moral and just. For me, when I think about the mountains of literature and art and music and philosophy and other religions that all have their roots in our Torah, I can't think of any other piece of literature that is more true than our Torah, that has inspired so [00:10:00] much than our Torah.

And, it's measure of truthiness, or Torahness, is it's ability to continue to do so. And that is an ongoing process. 

Jeff Silberblatt: That's a good word that we just made up, Torahness. 

Rabbi Ari Kaimen: Yeah. I like that. Torah is anything that, that continues to teach us, um, that kind of divine truth. 

Jeff Silberblatt: Rabbi Feldman, do you feel the same way? Is the Torah a hundred percent true?

Are the stories written from true accounts or has it been embellished a little bit for good reading and good understanding? 

Rabbi Feldman: My job is to adhere to what the Torah claims about itself. And why is that? Because I start with the premise. That the author of the Torah is not human, and it's not a collection of human beings, it's God.

So I start with the premise that whatever the Torah says absolutely means it. I don't always know what he means, but I know he means it. So my job is now to [00:11:00] figure out what he means. So is it absolutely true? A hundred percent. But if the Torah says that the ark that Noah floated in around a flooded earth was a certain number of cubits high.

And why? Absolutely bereaved. If the Torah says that the world was created in six days, I believe it, but I don't know what a day is because it didn't measure the day. Absolutely is a unit called a day. Six of them that the world was created in. So, uh, okay, that embellishes it all. 

Jeff Silberblatt: All right, Rabbi Berg, do you want to weigh in on this, uh, big, big question here?

Rabbi Feldman said something very important, which I think is, uh, using the day as an analogy, that We don't know what a day is, we just know that it's a day. And, and so it, it means that truth, when it comes to Torah, means we have to insert ourselves. We have to be a part of the conversation. We have to study and we have to learn.

That's how we ascertain the [00:12:00] truth. Uh, I wasn't there when the Ark was built, so I can't say exactly how it happened, but we do have an accurate recording from the Torah. And the Torah, it teaches us how to behave and how to act. And I think that is the most important premise of the Torah. When we talk about what does truth mean in the Torah, it's our guide and our way of life.

And these are the stories that have been passed from generation to generation, that our parents taught us and that we teach our children. And for me, that's the essence of the truth when it comes to Torah. All right, Rabbi Feldman, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw out a big question to you now. And that is about your denomination's thoughts.

On the several claims that Rabbi Schneerson is the Messiah, but yet Christians say that Jesus is the Messiah. Can you set a straight? 

Rabbi Feldman: I'll only know who the Messiah is when he accomplished what the Messiah is supposed to accomplish. Until that time, I never know who [00:13:00] the Messiah is. And I can exclude some people from candidacy, um, based on evidence, which is The book tells me, the manual, uh, that I believe is written by God, tells me that there will be no prophet or messenger from God who will deny a single word in the Torah.

The second Jesus says anything different than the five books, He may be an inspired guy, but he ain't the messiah. 

Jeff Silberblatt: Okay. That, that's a great answer, Rabbi Berg. I want you to weigh in on that as well. I just, I wish I could have as anything different to contribute, but Rabbi Felben speaks the truth that there are guidelines in our tradition that teach us what we will be like when the messianic era is here.

And since that hasn't happened yet. There's no way to assign the character traits of Messiah to any person that is here now. Rabbi Kamen, your [00:14:00] turn to weigh in. 

Rabbi Ari Kaimen: One of my teachers, Rabbi Brad Artson, once gave a high holiday sermon, which began, The Messiah is in this room right now, and you are it. Uh, and what he was trying to say in that sermon was that none of us know what will the Messianic era look like, who will begin it.

At every B'rit Milah, we invoke Eliyahu Hanavi as a way of Uh, saying, who knows, who knows what potential, what potential each one of us has. And, and so I, I, I know that Rabbi Schneerson was an inspired guy and I know he said he taught a lot of really good Torah and brought a lot of good to the world, uh, and through his students who, some of whom are my teachers and, uh, and his Torah, which I have learned from, [00:15:00] uh, I, I think we're a little bit closer, but I don't.

I don't think that any one of us holds that title of Moshiach alone. I think it's going to take all of us working together. 

Jeff Silberblatt: What I like about Rabbi Artson's teaching is that each of us has to act as if we have the potential to be the Messiah. And I say that in a humble, silly way. Yeah. You know what?

That would make a great billboard on 285. Right. Or a great Super Bowl commercial. All right. For the benefit of our podcast audience, it's important to note that we are recording this in the early evening. I've not had dinner. I'm not sure if the rabbis have had their dinner. But I'm going to ask a question about food.

And that is, why do some Jewish denominations believe in the importance of staying kosher and the rules of kashruth? And why others do not. And I'm going to start with Rabbi Ari. 

Rabbi Ari Kaimen: Well, speaking on behalf of all of conservative Judaism, the approach [00:16:00] of most conservative rabbis That I know. I've kept a version of kashrut my whole life.

I grew up in the conservative movement. But to spare the listeners my whole long story of my relationship with kashrut, the lifting up of our relationship with animals, specifically, when we eat, you know, most of Keeping Kosher is about how we relate to meat eating and dairy eating. And when we think about that relationship, it's a great privilege that humans have to be able to have such great access to food, limiting that access in some way, right?

Even the Noahide law said, you know, if you're going to eat, don't eat like other animals. Eat like a human. Don't eat the blood. But Jews, we gotta limit ourselves further. We have to recognize that we have a special role to play in the world. And that when [00:17:00] we eat, every single time we eat, we should lift up that experience to be specifically Jewish, to recognize that our commitments might be more limited, might be a little bit different than someone else.

And that identity forming act is something that I think we hold to be quite important. And, and many conservative Jews. Might not think of themself as keeping kosher, but will refrain from eating pork. Bacon's okay, but maybe they won't eat pork. You know, and That would be kosher light. Well, they might have a word for it like that, but there's some dietary practice that they have that is in connection with the ideas of Judaism and of Kashrud.

And of course, I'm an advocate for, for maximizing whatever practices we can. 

Jeff Silberblatt: So, Rabbi Berg, I'm going to come to you because I want Rabbi Feldman to end this segment on this question. The question to you that [00:18:00] I have is that weren't kosher rules developed for health reasons? No. And, okay. No. Um. They're spiritual.

Uh, to be holy. Personally, you might be surprised to know that there are many. Reform Jews who do keep kosher. For many reform Jews, as for many conservative Jews, we're obligated to ethical commandments. And there are certain ritual commandments that people are supposed to study and learn and make educated choices.

But there are a lot of Jews who really put a lot of attention and effort into thinking about what it is that they eat and how eating can be holy. As we're commanded to do. And so part of what I like to think about a lot is, is beyond kashrut as we know it, but an additional layer of rules and regulations about eating that really uplifts holiness to another level and [00:19:00] thinking about spiritual holiness and.

Echo holiness and all of the different ways that we can be holy in addition to the laws that have been passed down from generation to generation. So you're saying that our promise to keep these dietary laws keeps us closer to God? I believe that that is true. And that's why I observe a certain level of, of kashrut.

Okay. So the reason why I saved Rabbi Feldman for the last part of this question is that Rabbi Feldman is the Dean of the Atlanta Kashrut Commission. Okay. And so Rabbi Feldman, I want to know why do some denominations or some Jews feel that keeping kosher is part of the religion and why others don't have that same feeling?

Rabbi Feldman: Well, first of all, I agree that many Jews are motivated by a desire to restore the power of choice to the area of food, which means that food, like any other commodity, [00:20:00] time, sex, money, The food runs you, or you run food, and by distinguishing a Jewish diet and choosing what to eat and what not to eat, a person restores choice to his life, and choice is very much related to sanctity.

Sanctity means dedicated to a particular purpose, so if food runs my life, then my life is not dedicated to a particular purpose. If I run food, which means I use food as a tool to a higher end, then I've got, then I'm approaching sanctity. So I relate very much to what was said, but I think it's really important for us to understand the reason Orthodox Jews keep kosher is because the Torah says to.

End of story. Now you want reasons, you want interpretations, you want benefits from it, I could wax poetic about it for about until tomorrow, but the Torah says eat this, don't eat that. That's why I eat this and don't eat that. 

Jeff Silberblatt: So, someone who is Jewish and [00:21:00] does not keep kosher, does that make them less Jewish?

Is there a, is there a scale from 1 to 10? 

Rabbi Feldman: No. Someone who's Jewish is Jewish, no matter what he or she says or does about anything. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And, uh, there are Jews who are more cognizant. Other Judaism and others who are less , their Jews who are more practicing, and there others who are less practicing, but they are all Jews.

Jeff Silberblatt: Rabbi Cayman, gimme your thoughts on that. Is someone less Jewish if they're not keeping kosher? 

Rabbi Ari Kaimen: 100% agree with Rabbi Feldman 

Jeff Silberblatt: and Rabbi Bird. Couldn't agree more. You're asking questions and we're all, uh, agreeing with each other. Yeah, everybody's agreeing. So that's our rabbi round table. Rabbi Berg, rabbi Cayman.

Rabbi Feldman, I want to thank all three of you for one, tackling some pretty tough questions that we had this evening, but for two, for taking your time so that we can have [00:22:00] a vigorous conversation about questions from the Bible, from the Torah, and from Judaism in general. We talked about the Maccabees.

We talked about keeping kosher, and we talked about The Messiah. My name is Jeff Silberblatt, and this has been Jewish time. Thank you for your time. We'll speak again soon. 

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